Comments on SB2586 Apiary Act of 2008

[Alvin E. Toda]

This is a message that has been forwarded to many
beekeepers in the state. Just sharing it. I think that
the extermination on Oahu might have been successful
because I have only seen one bee in the last four weeks
and I killed it-- out here in PC. Of course, you only
need one surviving bee to start the whole thing up
again. So the hive from which the bee came from should
be exterminated if it is not already infested and dead
by now from the varroa mite.

----- Original Message -----
From: Kona Queen
To: 'Jill Tokuda' ; 'Clift Tsuji' ; 'Sandra Kunimoto' ; 'Brian Taniguchi' ; Lyle Wong ; Neil Reimer ; ***@hawaii.gov
Cc: Garnett Puett ; 'Howard McGinnis' ; 'Hawaiian Queen Co. Inc.' ; ***@hawaii.rr.com
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 9:22 AM
Subject: Comments on SB2586 Apiary Act of 2008


Dear Friends,

As the largest beekeeper in the state of Hawaii I don't
think SB2586 is what we need at this time. The
beekeepers who do not want the DOA to know where their
hives are located now are not going to register them if
we have a law. The varroa mite will eventually kill
most of these hives anyway.

I strongly feel the state needs to put it's resources
into moving forward with THE PLAN already in place.
This is the Plan to attack the wild bee population and
then follow up with exterminating the domestic hives in
a coordinated effort. I already have the hives ready
to replace the ones lost for those who need
pollination.

There remains a $5-7 million dollar rural industry in
S. Kona that leads the world in queen and organic honey
production. Introduction of the varroa mite to this
island would be devastating to both. This does not
include the pollination benefits to coffee, mac nuts,
and many other agricultural crops.

The varroa mite has made it's way to nearly every
corner of the globe. Hawaii has an opportunity to take
action or ignore the issue. We hear Hawaii wants to
support and protect agriculture and this would be a
good time to demonstrate just that.

Any questions please call,

Gus Rouse
President, Kona Queen Hawaii

[Lawrence Akutagawa]

"Alvin E. Toda" <***@lava.net> wrote in message
news:1201832103-***@news.lava.net...
>
> This is a message that has been forwarded to many
> beekeepers in the state. Just sharing it. I think that
> the extermination on Oahu might have been successful
> because I have only seen one bee in the last four weeks
> and I killed it-- out here in PC. Of course, you only
> need one surviving bee to start the whole thing up
> again. So the hive from which the bee came from should
> be exterminated if it is not already infested and dead
> by now from the varroa mite.

/msg snipped/

Alvin -

Does the varroa mite have a vector/host other than the bee? If the
answer
is "no," then why don't you lobby for saturating Oahu with loads and
loads
of those mites? After all, Oahu already has the mite, as you have so
constantly reminded us readers. So introducing a whole lot more
mites just
hastens the process already under way. Such saturation will ensure the
demise of every hive, no? And given no other host/vector available,
would
not the varroa mite itself be vanquished? Now wait a suitable amount of
time and then - and only then - after ample verification and
confirmation,
reintroduce the bees. Of course, tighten up the import controls that
have
previously allowed the mite to be introduced in Oahu.

By the way - killing one worker bee is like killing that one ant you
found
on the kitchen counter. Makes you feel really good, but the hive/
nest lives
on. And just any one surviving bee does not "start the whole thing up
again" - you need a very specific bee with which to "start the whole
thing
up again"....a fertile queen, as per
http://www.uni.uiuc.edu/~stone2/bee_life_stages.html . And you won't
find
such a fertile queen flying around by her lonesome, as per
http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/bee_pubs/walls/bees_in_walls.htm . At
least,
that the way bees behave in the reality in which most of us others live.

[Alvin E. Toda]

On Fri, 1 Feb 2008, Lawrence Akutagawa wrote:

> By the way - killing one worker bee is like killing
> that one ant you found on the kitchen counter.
> Makes you feel really good, but the hive/ nest lives
> on. And just any one surviving bee does not "start
> the whole thing up again" - you need a very specific
> bee with which to "start the whole thing up
> again"....a fertile queen, as per
> http://www.uni.uiuc.edu/~stone2/bee_life_stages.html
> . And you won't find such a fertile queen flying
> around by her lonesome, as per
> http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/bee_pubs/walls/bees_in_walls.htm
> . At least, that the way bees behave in the reality
> in which most of us others live.

Larry, Larry, Larry, you have such a litteral mind. I
was referring here to the varroa mite. It should be
obvious to anyone but you.

Bees will quite often come accross a hive when they
look for flower nectar. They'll go in because they
smell the honey and the queen's smell. In doing so,
some of the mites will drop off and latch onto fresh
meat-- bees of the other hive. In no time, the new hive
is infected and the infection spread by those bees as
well. Most of the hives in the area could become
infected that way. All of the hives will eventually
die.

There's some new news on the deaths of these bees for a
specific area. Looks like the corn seed growers don't
like bees going through their areas and spreading the
pollen to other normal corn plants in the neighboring
yards and farms. This is probably a genetic nightmare
if there is any reason for it-- not that I'm saying
there is. For beekeepers it's a problem because the
honey might be tainted by the strong pesticide used to
kill the bees.

They might prefer that the corn seed growers used more
"organic methods" that wouldn't taint the honey. Here's
an excerpt from a Hawaii Beekeepers Associantion email.
Maren please let me know if you want a copy, but this
is more a neighbor-neighbor problem than an
environmentalist problem. One party is a monestary
nearby that is trying to use organic methods to save
the honey and avoid trying a (inexpensive if the state
will provide it) medicated substance that will affect
only the mites and taint the honey but save the bees.
Some beekeepers rather than exterminate their hives for
the state money would rather try to medicate the hive.

Here's the quote:

> Secondly, his hives were hit by a pesticide kill.
> Several of the hives had dead bees in front of the
> hives, lots of them. Already weakened by mites, this
> is the last thing the hives need. Most likely the
> corn people down the hill. I think that the effects
> of the pesticide will take a will to clear up. I
> think the kill occurred maybe 1 to 2 weeks before I
> saw the hives. Perhaps re-hiving these into new comb
> may be a strategy to remove any residual pesticides
> from the hive.

> I've been trying (as has [xxx]) to get back out there
> as well as research organic mite control methods - I
> think Father [yyy] would like to avoid the silver
> bullet Apistan if possible, but I seem to be locked
> in a life-or-death struggle with my hives.....

[Maren at google]

On Feb 1, 10:40 am, "Lawrence Akutagawa" <***@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
> "Alvin E. Toda" <***@lava.net> wrote in messagenews:1201832103-***@news.lava.net...
>
>> This is a message that has been forwarded to many
>> beekeepers in the state. Just sharing it. I think that
>> the extermination on Oahu might have been successful
>> because I have only seen one bee in the last four weeks
>> and I killed it-- out here in PC. Of course, you only
>> need one surviving bee to start the whole thing up
>> again. So the hive from which the bee came from should
>> be exterminated if it is not already infested and dead
>> by now from the varroa mite.

> By the way - killing one worker bee is like killing that one ant you
> found
> on the kitchen counter. Makes you feel really good, but the hive/
> nest lives
> on.

if the one (new to the hive) worker bee has varroa mites and the
rest of the hive so far didn't it will start the whole infestation
over
again.

BTW, eradicating bees IMHO may solve the problem of the varroa
mite infestation, but it doesn't solve the problem that the varroa
mite
created: a lack of bees.

Exterminating the hive where the bee came from doesn't solve anything
unless you know that there are varroa mites. If there are varroa
mites,
eradicate them. If there aren't let them live and keep checking.
And, for crying out loud, you're supposed ot kill the mites, whether
you
kill the bees with them or not. Killing the bees and letting the mites
live
isn't going to solve anything.

(No Al, I don't need a copy. I believe you that this was sent by the
guy from
Kona Queen. On the side of the bee people they're probably the ones
with
the most to lose. How much the farmers/orchardists in their
surroundings lose
if they ose the bees I don't even want to think about).

BTW: corn is mostly wind pollinated.

And: I wouldn't be surprised if carpenter bees and such would be
affected
by the mite too, even though they are rather solitary (there goes the
lilikoi
crop).

Aloha,
Maren
Palms, Etc.: Tropical Plant Seeds - Plants & Lilikoi
http://www.jach.hawaii.edu/~maren/palms_etc/
and
HiloBeads: Beads - Beading Supplies - Hand-made Jewelry
http://www.hilobeads.com/
Blog at: http://hilobeads.blogspot.com/

[Alvin E. Toda]

On Mon, 4 Feb 2008, Maren at google wrote:

> BTW, eradicating bees IMHO may solve the problem of
> the varroa mite infestation, but it doesn't solve the
> problem that the varroa mite created: a lack of bees.
>
> Exterminating the hive where the bee came from
> doesn't solve anything unless you know that there are
> varroa mites. If there are varroa mites, eradicate
> them. If there aren't let them live and keep
> checking. And, for crying out loud, you're supposed
> ot kill the mites, whether you kill the bees with
> them or not. Killing the bees and letting the mites
> live isn't going to solve anything.

Yes. There are tests that can be done. And beekeepers--
some at least-- would rather that the bees lives.
They'll even try medication although that may taint the
honey.

But you're luck, because one of the major sources of
new bees is on the big island. Queen bees sell for
somthing like $10 each if you buy them wholesale. It's
not unusual for a mainland beekeeper now to have to
re-Queen each season for the hives lost to the varroa
mite. IIRC Kona Queen Bees ship about a 100 high
quality queens for about $1000 a box. Maren you'd get a
greater return if you switched to growing queen bees.
Just you'll have to worry about the SuperFerry bringing
a bee with varroa mites from Oahu.

> BTW: corn is mostly wind pollinated.
>
> And: I wouldn't be surprised if carpenter bees and
> such would be affected by the mite too, even though
> they are rather solitary (there goes the lilikoi
> crop).

There your go.... then you can switch to growing seed
corn which brings in a lot if you can grow the GM
variety, or just grow sweet corn for the local market.

[Lawrence Akutagawa]

"Alvin E. Toda" <***@lava.net> wrote in message
news:1201992902-***@news.lava.net...
>
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2008, Lawrence Akutagawa wrote:
>
>> By the way - killing one worker bee is like killing that one ant you
>> found on the kitchen counter. Makes you feel really good, but the hive/
>> nest lives on. And just any one surviving bee does not "start the whole
>> thing up again" - you need a very specific bee with which to "start the
>> whole thing up again"....a fertile queen, as per
>> http://www.uni.uiuc.edu/~stone2/bee_life_stages.html . And you won't
>> find such a fertile queen flying around by her lonesome, as per
>> http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/bee_pubs/walls/bees_in_walls.htm . At least,
>> that the way bees behave in the reality in which most of us others live.
>
> Larry, Larry, Larry, you have such a litteral mind. I
> was referring here to the varroa mite. It should be
> obvious to anyone but you.
>
> Bees will quite often come accross a hive when they
> look for flower nectar. They'll go in because they
> smell the honey and the queen's smell. In doing so,
> some of the mites will drop off and latch onto fresh
> meat-- bees of the other hive. In no time, the new hive
> is infected and the infection spread by those bees as
> well. Most of the hives in the area could become
> infected that way. All of the hives will eventually
> die.

Sorry, Alvin - as I keep reminding my wife of over 36 years, I done flunked
Mindreading 101over and over again through the years. If you don't mean
what you write, then - yes - I stand corrected because it is only your very
words - "you only need one surviving bee to start the whole thing up
again." - that I can understand, not what you meant but didn't say. If
indeed you meant something other than those words you said (by the
way...that is a correct quote of what you did say, is it not?)...then I for
one have no idea from those words of yours what it is that you mean. On
the
other hand, should your words here convey what you mean but are not precise
and specific enough to mean only that which you mean, but can also be taken
to mean something else - then given your use here of such imprecise and
ambiguous wording, I submit that my interpretation of what you did say is
indeed a valid one logically consistent with what you've said. You are a
former engineer, I do believe...you should thereby understand that you
really need to say exactly and precisely what you mean rather than use
vague
and general language open to different - but valid - interpretations.

And as for your rather interesting explanation as per how the mite is
spread, I note no substantiation on your part. Hopefully you can
provide us
references/citations/links backing up your explanation...particularly that
fascinating bit about transient bees entering a hive other than their own
"...because they smell the honey and the queen's smell."

[Lawrence Akutagawa]

"Maren at google" <***@jach.hawaii.edu> wrote in message
news:1202144703-***@news.lava.net...
>
> On Feb 1, 10:40 am, "Lawrence Akutagawa" <***@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>> "Alvin E. Toda" <***@lava.net> wrote in
>> messagenews:1201832103-***@news.lava.net...
>>
>>> This is a message that has been forwarded to many
>>> beekeepers in the state. Just sharing it. I think that
>>> the extermination on Oahu might have been successful
>>> because I have only seen one bee in the last four weeks
>>> and I killed it-- out here in PC. Of course, you only
>>> need one surviving bee to start the whole thing up
>>> again. So the hive from which the bee came from should
>>> be exterminated if it is not already infested and dead
>>> by now from the varroa mite.
>
>> By the way - killing one worker bee is like killing that one ant you
>> found
>> on the kitchen counter. Makes you feel really good, but the hive/
>> nest lives
>> on.
>
> if the one (new to the hive) worker bee has varroa mites and the
> rest of the hive so far didn't it will start the whole infestation
> over
> again.
>
/snip/

Thanks for the clarification, Maren. That is what I guess Alvin
meant to
say...but didn't, ambiguous and prone to logically valid different
interpretation as his words were. I'm waiting his subtantiation of
errant
bees entering a hive other than their own "...because they smell the
honey
and the queen's smell." Knowing Alvin, I think it will be a much, much
longer rather than a shorter wait.